tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9129357734481422196.post6816459334959106215..comments2024-01-18T21:16:15.516+03:00Comments on Riihivilla, Dyeing with natural dyes: Chickweed myth VesiheinämyyttiLeenahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14266878515009058403noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9129357734481422196.post-2896596350256416592015-05-06T12:02:44.041+03:002015-05-06T12:02:44.041+03:00Meta, thank you very much for sharing your experie...Meta, thank you very much for sharing your experience! <br />It confirms why chickweed is included in recipes with logwood, it does improve the color with logwood also by your experience. <br />Many times old recipes are just repeated in newer books and so it seems also in Finnish book this recipe has been taken from the older Norwegian/German books, and later Finnish books have then just said that chickweed can be used as a mordant, and not been precise that it is the logwood recipe where it is used, and even with it, it was used together with alum, not by itself.Leenahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14266878515009058403noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9129357734481422196.post-56512482513575040742015-05-03T22:36:12.604+03:002015-05-03T22:36:12.604+03:00If not too late I want to add some to the discussi...If not too late I want to add some to the discussion. Recently I dyed wool fleece with logwood for the first time. I followed for a good part a recipe from a dutch dyebook from 1973 by N. Goubitz. The recipe looks the same to me as mentioned above by Ambra. It prescribes 200% chickweed and 8% alum. It would dye lilac/purple color.<br />I looked for information in different places, an added some things to the recipe. I had 12 grams of logwoodpowder I believe it was sawdust. I have added a pinch of chalk and soaked two days before making the dyebath by simmering it for 30 minutes. The actual dyeing was done in an old copper pot. I hoped this would improve the lightfastness. All the wool about 60 grams turned a deep dark blue. Alum mordanted wool is a little bit paler and a little bit more towards purple compared to chickweed/alum mordanted that is like navy blue. Alum/creamof tartar is about the same as chickweed/alum. Difficult to see all the wool is really dark.<br />I think the chickweed does act as assistent or mordant because of this. But I don't know how. Unfortunately I forgot to add an unmordanted piece. <br />I don't know why the dark blue color. Was it the chalk, the chickweed, the kettle, ore my water. I am pleased with it, though. I will post pictures on Flickr, I can let you know when in this place, if you like.<br /><br />I was curious what was the mordanting element of stellaria. The mordant bath smelled like spinach and the wool turned soft greenish yellow. I searched with google for chickweed mordant and find your post. Very interesting to me and I'd want to let you know of my experience. I visited your blog more often before, without reacting, I think it is wonderful and and very generous. <br />It is full of treasure to me to read your experience and see your results. I learn a lot. Metahttp://www.flickr.com/photos/110058888@N08noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9129357734481422196.post-33939109927110422462013-02-26T05:10:47.862+03:002013-02-26T05:10:47.862+03:00Thanks for this discussion, it is very interesting...Thanks for this discussion, it is very interesting and contributes to Jenny Dean's experiments rather wonderfully!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9129357734481422196.post-17704080515600225472013-02-25T10:14:13.977+03:002013-02-25T10:14:13.977+03:00Vielä, mielenkiintoista, että tuossa emäntälehden ...Vielä, mielenkiintoista, että tuossa emäntälehden jutussa mainitaan Hilda Christensen, vrt hänen kirjassaan oleva vesiheinä/aluna/sinipuuresepti.Leenahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14266878515009058403noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9129357734481422196.post-70426963339991788862013-02-25T10:05:42.866+03:002013-02-25T10:05:42.866+03:00Hei Päivi, kiitos!
Tuo liekoresepti näyttää samalt...Hei Päivi, kiitos!<br />Tuo liekoresepti näyttää samalta perusreseptiltä, mitä on muuallakin.<br />Jenny Dean oli löytänyt vanhimman reseptin v 1817 (Ehler), missä käytettiin vesiheinää alunan lisäksi sinipuuvärjäyksessä. Se resepti on täysin sama kuin mitä myöhemmissä Christensenin ja Spraengerin kirjoissa. Kun myös liekoa on käytetty monissa suomalaisissakin sinipuuresepteissä alunan kanssa, niin tulee kyllä mieleen, että nekin reseptit ovat jotain vanhempaa perua ja tuo että vesiheinää voi käyttää lieon asemasta on väärinkäsitys. Ainakaan se ei toimi samalla tavalla alunankerääjänä kuin lieot, mutta jokin vaikutus sillä tietysti on, koska sitä on käytetty nimenomaan sinipuuvärjäyksissä.<br /><br />Sattuisiko Coloriastosta löytymään mitään 1800 luvun saksalaista tai pohjoismaista kirjaa, missä olisi sinipuuresepteissä käytetty lisänä vesiheinää? yritin itse etsiä sieltä silloin kun kirjoitin tuota juttua, mutta en löytänyt.Leenahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14266878515009058403noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9129357734481422196.post-86480603970409888902013-02-25T00:40:05.182+03:002013-02-25T00:40:05.182+03:00Coloriastosta löytyvässä Emäntälehden jutussa vuod...Coloriastosta löytyvässä Emäntälehden jutussa vuodelta 1904 <br />mainitaan lyhyesti "Lieko (Lycopodium alpinum). Kasvi kootaan keväällä ja kuivataan. Kasvi saa olla vedessä 3-4 päivää,<br />sitte vesi siivilöidään, peittaamaton lanka pannaan siihen; lanka saa olla siinä jälleen 3-4 päivää ja keitetään kerran päivässä. Kaunista harmaankeltaista.<br /><br />Vesiheinä (Stellaria media). Tämä kasvi voidaan käyttää sekä tuoreena että kuivattuna liekokasvin sijasta."<br /><br />http://coloriasto.blogspot.fi/2012/01/kasviaineilla-varjaamisesta.htmlPäivihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16739490706796543962noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9129357734481422196.post-90524784808619899732013-02-18T10:10:43.398+03:002013-02-18T10:10:43.398+03:00Thanks Bettina, it seems the recipe for your book ...Thanks Bettina, it seems the recipe for your book has perhaps been taken from the earlier Christensen book, it is interesting to see how information goes around:)<br /><br />Kiitos Ilona, Minusta on sekä mielenkiintoista että tärkeääkin yrittää selvittää mistä jotkut väärinkäsitykset ovat lähtöisin, ja se taas voi johtaa johonkin muuhun mielenkiintoiseen. Niinkuin nyt tässä vesiheinätapauksessa, että sitä on käytetty alunan lisänä sinipuuvärjäyksissä (eikä yksinään!), ja seuraava jännä asia selvittää olisikin se, miten se vaikuttaa siellä. Sen tässä on myös oppinut, että on hyvin yleistä, että tietoa kopioidaan suoraan kokelematta pitääkö se paikkaansa, ja vesiheinän kanssa vielä se, miten tieto on muuttunut eri kirjoissa, yksikin sana voi antaa eri merkityksen, jota sitten voidaan tulkita eri tavalla mitä alkuperäinen kirjoittaja on tarkoittanut. <br />Leenahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14266878515009058403noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9129357734481422196.post-50988918046804685002013-02-17T18:39:38.471+03:002013-02-17T18:39:38.471+03:00Postauksesi oli monellakin tapaa mielenkiintoinen ...Postauksesi oli monellakin tapaa mielenkiintoinen Leena. pidän kovasti tästä tutkimuksellisesta otteestasi, vain näin käsvivärjäys kehittyy edelleen. minussakin asuu pieni tutkija, rakastan selvitellä kaikenlaisia juttuja, perinpohjainen kun olen. Vesiheinä alkoi kiinnostaa todella nyt postauksesi johdosta, sitähän kasvaa täällä pihalla runsaasti. Ilona Winebridgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12255116456106741339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9129357734481422196.post-74956451147511932202013-02-17T17:26:33.262+03:002013-02-17T17:26:33.262+03:00Leena, the spraenger book is from 1969! I only saw...Leena, the spraenger book is from 1969! I only saw in the translation from Ambra that we wrote nearly the same:) <br />about the fungi - thanks for the info. never mind about the "dud" qualities, but at least they do look very pretty, I think! isn't it funny that the least promising looks tend to give the best colours with plants? Woolly Bitshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11961632742998726155noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9129357734481422196.post-27339062006010850252013-02-17T16:08:21.785+03:002013-02-17T16:08:21.785+03:00Thank you Wiebke,
I have Stellaria holostea in the...Thank you Wiebke,<br />I have Stellaria holostea in the garden. I will have to try it:)<br />Can you tell me a little more about how you do it?Leenahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14266878515009058403noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9129357734481422196.post-54863776178387129832013-02-17T15:23:07.329+03:002013-02-17T15:23:07.329+03:00ich habe bei karin tegeler mit sternmiere beizen g...ich habe bei karin tegeler mit sternmiere beizen gelernt..<br />Die Große Sternmiere (Stellaria holostea).herzlicher gruß wiebkeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9129357734481422196.post-27757899432039750232013-02-17T14:53:01.884+03:002013-02-17T14:53:01.884+03:00Hei, Larisa, pitääkin laittaa tietsikan kaiuttimet...Hei, Larisa, pitääkin laittaa tietsikan kaiuttimet kuntoon ja kuunnella sun juttu, kiitos vinkistä:)<br /><br />Olen vähän alkanut ajatella, että se vesiheinä on sinipuuvärjäyksissä siksi, että se jotenkin muuttaa sitä väriä, ehkä parantaa kestoakin, tai sitähän en tiedä ennenkuin kokeilee.<br />Luin nimittäin Cardonista 1800-luvun sinipuureseptejä, ja vaikka siellä ei mainittu vesiheinää, niin useissa resepteissä oli jokin kellertävää väriä/mahdollisesti tanniineja sisältävä antava aine lisänä (koivunkuoria, fustic yms), jospa vesiheinä on ollut helpommin kerättävissä ja siksi jokin sovelutus tästä.<br />Pitäisi löytää lisää vanhempia reseptejä, joko sinipuulle, tai sitten jos jossain olisi mainittu vesiheinä tai sitä vastaava kasvi.Leenahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14266878515009058403noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9129357734481422196.post-54257083805496092842013-02-17T13:08:51.069+03:002013-02-17T13:08:51.069+03:00Kiitos Leena taas upeasta salapoliisintyöstäsi. Mi...Kiitos Leena taas upeasta salapoliisintyöstäsi. Mielenkiintoinen asia. Kokeilin kerran vesiheinää laihoin tuloksin, mutta kesällä voikin kokeilla veiheinää alunan kanssa! Tulisikohan siinä oikeasti joku pieni lisäsävy lankoihin?<br />Larisa<br /><br />(p.s. Yle radion areenassa Yle Tampereen alta löytyy suorassa lähetyksessä tehty haastattelu minusta)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9129357734481422196.post-39763607900191142322013-02-17T11:09:50.494+03:002013-02-17T11:09:50.494+03:00Thanks Ambra!!
Bettina, thank you, What year was...Thanks Ambra!! <br /><br />Bettina, thank you, What year was Spraengers book published? The recipe looks exactly like the one in Christensens book. Thank you, it helps to clear things when you see how the same recipes circle and where they may originate.<br /><br />I looked up that fungi (it grows here too in the spring, but not very common), and I'm sorry to say, that my Swedish dye book says that it is not good for dyeing, the color comes from carotenoids which don't attach to the fiber, but I have not tried them myself. In american Bessette's book there is a related Sarcoscypha species which she lists with dye duds, so no color there either:(Leenahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14266878515009058403noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9129357734481422196.post-49704072911012568912013-02-16T21:21:22.419+03:002013-02-16T21:21:22.419+03:00Leena, in the german dye book "faerbbuch"...Leena, in the german dye book "faerbbuch" bei emil spraenger, he describes the use of "vogelmiere (stellaria media or chickweed)" in dyeing, because it contains a lot of potash (kali). it can be used fresh or dried. it is used for dyeing with logwood. the herb is boiled for an hour, then strained off and alum is added. the yarn is mordanted in this solution for an hour as usual. into the same dyebath is added a bagful of previously soaked logwood and boiled (simmered?) for 1/4 to 1/2 hour. the mordanted yarn is dyed for 3/4 to 1 1/4 hours in this liquid. now the bag is taken out, but the yarn stays in the bath until cooled off. supposedly this helps with the development of colour. not sure this helps:) I have a question for you, too:<br /><br />do you know the fungi Sarcoscypha coccinea (picture here: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scharlachroter_Kelchbecherling) the english name is lovely: scarlet elf cup:) I found them close to where I live and I was wondering if this maybe can be used for dyeing? Woolly Bitshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11961632742998726155noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9129357734481422196.post-14070335457187920072013-02-16T21:19:04.357+03:002013-02-16T21:19:04.357+03:00Yes, I was very pleased when I found it for sale o...Yes, I was very pleased when I found it for sale on the internet at some Dutch used bookseller :)<br />Brissel is "den rödbrune, sortsktie kjerneved av kampchetreet (Haematoxylon campechianum)... so yes it is Logwood.<br />And the translation is that it can be used fresh the whole summer, but used dry in winter. It doesn't give any colour itself but can be used as mordant for blue colour using Logwood. <br />The recipe is for dark blue. It states that the Stellaria is boiled for one hour and then sieved. Add to that the alum and stir well. Then put in the wetted unmordanted fibers and let it cook for 1 hour and then take it up. Fill a small bag with logwood which had been made wet. Let it boil in the dye liquor for 15 minutes. Then put the fibers in again and let it boil with the logwoodbag for one hour. Let the yarn cool in the dye liquor. If a darker colour is desired then use more Logwood. THe warning about the colour is that is is fast enough for clothing, but shouldn't use it for carpets.Ambrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08168612636448560475noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9129357734481422196.post-87986528718455553162013-02-16T18:47:14.945+03:002013-02-16T18:47:14.945+03:00Ambra, thank you so so much!!
I thought that maybe...Ambra, thank you so so much!!<br />I thought that maybe no-one hd that book, but asked anyway.<br /><br />If I understand correctly, it says frist that it can be used either fresh or dry, and does not give any color itself but can be used as a mordant for dyeing with "brissel", is this logwood?<br />And in the recipe chickweed is first cooked, then alum added, then yarn to that bath and mordanted, and afterthat dyed with brissel. I wonder why use chickweed together with alum, perhaps it gives something to the final color. Many old dye recipes contain several plants or ingredients, while now we usually only use one ingredient.<br /><br />So now according to this it seems you still need alum, even if you use chickweed. This cleared this a lot, it might be that this is what is meant in the Finnish books, too, but when they don't give a recipe, it was impossible to know.<br /><br />Thank you again Ambra!Leenahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14266878515009058403noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9129357734481422196.post-81048692959219114592013-02-16T18:34:28.637+03:002013-02-16T18:34:28.637+03:00I have the book by Hilda Christensen, 4th version ...I have the book by Hilda Christensen, 4th version from 1932. She describes the plant and then (pg. 37): " Den benyttes frisk hele sommeren og kan törres til vinterbruk. Den avgir ikke nogen farve, men brukes som beisning for bla farver av brissel".<br />On pg. 95 there is this recipe:<br />"55. Mörkt blatt med vasarv.<br />250 gr, garn.<br />1 bötte frisk vasarv.<br />32 gr alun.<br />50 gr brissel.<br />Vasarven utkokes 1 time og files. Suppen tilsettes alunen, som omröres vel. Heri har man nu det vate, ubeisede garn og lar det koke i 1 time, hvorpa man tar det op. En liten pose som er fylt med den opblötte brissel, koker i suppen 1/4 time.<br />Heri har man nu atter garnet og lar det koke sammen med brisselposen i 1 time.<br />Garnet ligger i suppen til den er kold.<br />Vil man have mörjere farve, tar man mer brissel.<br />For denne farves holdbarhet gjelder det samme som ovenfor nevnt.Ambrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08168612636448560475noreply@blogger.com